I bought two pair of Siemens on ebay and checked them with Siemens germany, through their site.
I got an answer in 24 hours and they told me the serial numbers were OK.
I would recommend buying used HA from ebay only if the cost less than 20% of the retail price. Some “used” HA’s sold on ebay are HA’s bought by someone and never used. I believe this happens quite a lot, and there may be hundred of thousands HA’s in houses around the world that could help others and were hardly or never used.
This is intended to be a short White Paper on the issues of “stolen” hearing aids, lawful/unlawful grounds for seizure as well as on certain elements of the unlawful practices of certain manufacturers.
(Also Available in PDF Format at http://www.help2hear.org/legal/legal.pdf)
Interestingly, here in the states, there were a couple of “Asian gang members” working at Phonak USA who were pilfering aids coming back in for destruction. They were selling them on EBay.
There were also so legitimate VA Aids in the system, not related to the above. Phonak had put the word to their affiliates and corporate owned stores to sieze not only the stolen Phonak aids, but any of the VA aids as well that may come in for repair from other than the VA direct.
NOTE: If anyone, audiologist or otherwise threatens you with seizure of your aids, tell them to put it in writing. If they won’t, immediately call the local police and have them investigate. Chances are, the local audiologist won’t put a damn thing in writing because they know their liability in the matter, nor will Phonak. GET THE POLICE involved – that is the best advice to sort it out and find the truth, which has been clearly twisted on a number of occasions now that I know of personally. Once the Police are called or the treat to do so, you will find the story from the person or store attempting to seize your aids often changes!
As a result of some of these issues, I contacted the VA and after many phone calls, came across the person to help – a Criminal Investigator in the VA – Fraud Division. Here is the context of our conversation. I am not going to publish his name, but if you would like such information to verify the validity of the fact that PHONAK HAS NO LAWFUL RIGHT TO SIEZE AIDS ISSUED BY THE VA, contact me directly. Here is the text of our exchange.
-------- Original Message --------
[RIGHT]Subject: [/RIGHT]
RE: Fraud Referral
[RIGHT]Date: [/RIGHT]
Mon, cc Jun 2012 11:27:50 -0500
[RIGHT]From: [/RIGHT]
Xxxxxxxx, Xxxxxxxx (OIG) <Joseph.xxxxxx.va.gov>
[RIGHT]To: [/RIGHT]
Mr. Xxxxxxxx,
Sorry for the long delay in getting back to you. I wanted to make sure I got you the right answer.
According to my contact in prosthetics at the VA, hearing aids that are issued to veterans DO NOT remain the property of the VA.
In an email to her I asked, “I would really like to get a definitive answer as to the “ownership” of VA issued hearing aids once they are given to veterans. Do they become the property of the veteran to keep, sell, give away or throw away as they wish, or do they remain the property of the VA?”
My contact responded with the following:
Hearing Aids would not be considered reusable medical equipment. They are manufactured for a specific patient as single use item. Equipment furnished to the veteran does not have to be returned. Although, the VA will accepted items if voluntarily donated to us.
Prosthetics VHA Handbook 1173.2, page 9
(a) Reusable medical equipment will be recovered, if offered, refurbished if necessary, and
reissued whenever such actions are cost-effective. For the purposes of recovery, loan items will
be depreciated at the rate of 20 percent per year from the date purchased. If it is not cost effective
to recover a particular item, the offer will be politely declined and the veteran or family
member will be advised to donate it to some nonprofit organization; e.g., a veterans service
organization, the Red Cross, or the American Cancer Society.
I cannot comment on any licensing, consumer, or business law type issues, but it is clear a veteran is free to do whatever he or she chooses to do with their issued hearing aids.
I would continued to use caution when purchasing hearing aids in order to avoid purchasing stolen property. While there is no department within VA which would be able to assist you in researching aids by serial number, please feel free to contact me if you become suspicious of potential fraud.
Thanks again,
Xxx Xxxxxxxx
Special Agent
VA Office of Inspector General
Criminal Investigations Division
P.O. Box 1454
Hines, IL 60141
xxx-202-xxxx office
xxxx-622-xxxx cell
(NOTE - SEE: http://www1.va.gov/vhapublications/ViewPublication.asp?pub_ID=338)
From: Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, June xx, 2012 1:59 PM
To: Xxxxxxxx, Xxxxxxxx (OIG)
Cc: Help2hearAdmin
Subject: Re: Fraud Referral
Hi Xxxxxxxx,
Xxxxxxxx on this end. I wanted to touch base with you to see if you could help answer a question that many people in the market are confused about. This is not have to do with the new aids such as the ones that Mr. Xxxxxxxx was selling, but aids that have legitimately been issued to a veteran and then later on that veteran trades them in or sells them himself in the regular commercial or secondary markets.
The specific question is, do aids issued by the VA to a veteran remain the property of the VA or is the veteran free to trade those in through a commercial outlet or otherwise sell them?
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this issue and I don’t have a clue where I could find the answer to this question inside the VA, other than any help you might be able to give me. The real bottom line is that we who deal on the secondary markets clearly do not want to deal in any property that might remain the property of the US government/VA, even though they have been issued to a veteran and that veteran has elected to sell them or trade them in and the commercial markets.
The next problem is identifying aids, by serial number that have either been issued by the VA or that remain the property of the VA. You know of any department within the VA where we might check suspicious serial numbers to verify the legitimate ownership of hearing aids that were least once issued by the VA?
Any help you could give us be greatly appreciated, even if you just point us in the correct direction to find the answer. I would have to guess that the paperwork completed when they are issued to a veteran specifies if they remain property of the VA. As a non-veteran, I clearly don’t have access to that paperwork although you might.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Xxxxxxxx
On X/XX/2012 10:33 AM, Xxxxxxxx, Xxxxxxxx (OIG) wrote:
Dear Mr. Xxxxxxxx ,
This is my email address. Thanks for referring this matter to us. Please forward me any emails or other information you may have relating to this matter.
Thanks,
Xxx Xxxxxxxxxx
Special Agent
VA Office of Inspector General
Criminal Investigations Division
P.O. Box XXXX
Hines, IL 60141
xxx-xxx-xxxx office
xxx-xxx-xxxx cell
Interestingly, here in the states, there were a couple of “asian gang members” working at Phonak USA who were pilfering aids coming back in for destruction. They were selling them on EBay.
There were also so legitimate VA Aids in the system, not related to the above. Phonak had put the word to their affliilates and corporate owned stores to siezs not only the stolen Phonak aids, but any of the VA aids as well that may come in for repair from other than the VA direct.
NOTE: If anyone, audiologist or otherwise threatens you with seizure of your aids, tell them to put it in writing. If they won’t, immediately call the local police and have them investigate. Chances are, the local audiologist won’t put a damn thing in writing because they know their liability in the matter, nor will Phonak. GET THE POLICE involved – that is the best advice to sort it out and find the truth, which has been clearly twisted on a number of occasions now that I know of personally. Once the Police are called or the treat to do so, you will find the story from the person or store attempting to seize your aids often changes!
As a result of some of these issues, I contacted the VA and after many phone calls, came across the person to help – a Criminal Investigator in the VA – Fraud Division. Here is the context of our conversation. I am not going to publish his name, but if you would like such information to verify the validity of the fact that PHONAK HAS NO LAWFUL RIGHT TO SIEZE AIDS ISSUED BY THE VA, contact me directly. Here is the text of our exchange.
-------- Original Message --------
[RIGHT]Subject: [/RIGHT]
RE: Fraud Referral
[RIGHT]Date: [/RIGHT]
Mon, cc Jun 2012 11:27:50 -0500
[RIGHT]From: [/RIGHT]
Xxxxxxxx, Xxxxxxxx (OIG) <Joseph.xxxxxx.va.gov>
[RIGHT]To: [/RIGHT]
Mr. Xxxxxxxx,
Sorry for the long delay in getting back to you. I wanted to make sure I got you the right answer.
According to my contact in prosthetics at the VA, hearing aids that are issued to veterans DO NOT remain the property of the VA.
In an email to her I asked, “I would really like to get a definitive answer as to the “ownership” of VA issued hearing aids once they are given to veterans. Do they become the property of the veteran to keep, sell, give away or throw away as they wish, or do they remain the property of the VA?”
My contact responded with the following:
Hearing Aids would not be considered reusable medical equipment. They are manufactured for a specific patient as single use item. Equipment furnished to the veteran does not have to be returned. Although, the VA will accepted items if voluntarily donated to us.
Prosthetics VHA Handbook 1173.2, page 9
(a) Reusable medical equipment will be recovered, if offered, refurbished if necessary, and
reissued whenever such actions are cost-effective. For the purposes of recovery, loan items will
be depreciated at the rate of 20 percent per year from the date purchased. If it is not cost effective
to recover a particular item, the offer will be politely declined and the veteran or family
member will be advised to donate it to some nonprofit organization; e.g., a veterans service
organization, the Red Cross, or the American Cancer Society.
I cannot comment on any licensing, consumer, or business law type issues, but it is clear a veteran is free to do whatever he or she chooses to do with their issued hearing aids.
I would continued to use caution when purchasing hearing aids in order to avoid purchasing stolen property. While there is no department within VA which would be able to assist you in researching aids by serial number, please feel free to contact me if you become suspicious of potential fraud.
Thanks again,
Xxx Xxxxxxxx
Special Agent
VA Office of Inspector General
Criminal Investigations Division
P.O. Box 1454
Hines, IL 60141
xxx-202-xxxx office
xxxx-622-xxxx cell
(NOTE - SEE: http://www1.va.gov/vhapublications/ViewPublication.asp?pub_ID=338)
From: Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, June xx, 2012 1:59 PM
To: Xxxxxxxx, Xxxxxxxx (OIG)
Cc: Help2hearAdmin
Subject: Re: Fraud Referral
Hi Xxxxxxxx,
Xxxxxxxx on this end. I wanted to touch base with you to see if you could help answer a question that many people in the market are confused about. This is not have to do with the new aids such as the ones that Mr. Xxxxxxxx was selling, but aids that have legitimately been issued to a veteran and then later on that veteran trades them in or sells them himself in the regular commercial or secondary markets.
The specific question is, do aids issued by the VA to a veteran remain the property of the VA or is the veteran free to trade those in through a commercial outlet or otherwise sell them?
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this issue and I don’t have a clue where I could find the answer to this question inside the VA, other than any help you might be able to give me. The real bottom line is that we who deal on the secondary markets clearly do not want to deal in any property that might remain the property of the US government/VA, even though they have been issued to a veteran and that veteran has elected to sell them or trade them in and the commercial markets.
The next problem is identifying aids, by serial number that have either been issued by the VA or that remain the property of the VA. You know of any department within the VA where we might check suspicious serial numbers to verify the legitimate ownership of hearing aids that were least once issued by the VA?
Any help you could give us be greatly appreciated, even if you just point us in the correct direction to find the answer. I would have to guess that the paperwork completed when they are issued to a veteran specifies if they remain property of the VA. As a non-veteran, I clearly don’t have access to that paperwork although you might.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Xxxxxxxx
On X/XX/2012 10:33 AM, Xxxxxxxx, Xxxxxxxx (OIG) wrote:
Dear Mr. Xxxxxxxx ,
This is my email address. Thanks for referring this matter to us. Please forward me any emails or other information you may have relating to this matter.
Thanks,
Xxx Xxxxxxxxxx
Special Agent
VA Office of Inspector General
Criminal Investigations Division
P.O. Box XXXX
Hines, IL 60141
xxx-xxx-xxxx office
xxx-xxx-xxxx cell
---------------------------------- END MESSAGES -----------------------------------------
Additionally, see these interesting links about Phonak’s own legal problems.
ABOUT HEARING AID PRICES AND ASSOCIATED MANUFACTURER LEGAL VIOLATIONS AND PROBLEMS
By way of a bit of introduction, the objective herein is to give the person with hearing loss some additional insight into the ridiculously high prices charged for hearing aids. This information is about the facts and secrets the five or six major manufacturers (http://hearingaidinsider.com/articles/who-are-major-hearing-aid-manufacturers) don’t want you to know; about who is getting rich, how and why are they allowed to do these things. Although the consumer sees many brand names in the market place, many of those have the same core or internal electronics with certain features enabled or disabled to differentiate the different price levels and markets.
The Hearing Aid industry marketing models and distribution channels are changing by necessity and by government enforcement of anti-trust (anti-monopoly) and fair trade laws. The industry once used the “Medical Device Safety Argument” to justify their monopoly. That argument is hollow in the context of other products such as IPods, MP3 Players and other audio devices that are capable of producing hearing damaging sound levels. The current generation of such devices, in conjunction with the head phones and ear bud they utilize are potentially far more harmful than any hearing aid ever produced or even imagined. Still, this industry utilizes this rapidly eroding argument to justify the $5000 to $6000 dollars per pair of devices that should sell new for the $1000 to $1500 range if they followed the paths of other consumer electronics.
With the help of various governmental agencies, both in Europe (particularly in Germany) and in the US, this will slowly change to a fair and free market, much like the automobile industry has had to do with the coming of age of the internet. While consumers are still captive to a large extent, and there are clear monopolistic elements, that is slowly changing with the ability to shop internationally and the legal enforcement of fair trade laws and anti-monopoly litigation and statutes.
Why are Hearing Aids so expensive and who is making excessive profits and getting rich on those who have hearing loss?
Hearing Aids Prices vs. Consumer Electronics - see:
http://www.audicus.com/blogs/hearing-aids-blog/6857818-hearing-aids-prices-vs-consumer-electronics?utm_source=Audicus+Updates&utm_campaign=be6cf66c01-Greetings_from_Audicus_04_27_2012&utm_medium=email
Is there a Hearing Aid Bubble? - see: http://www.audicus.com/blogs/hearing-aids-blog/6071730-is-there-a-hearing-aid-price-bubble
Why Does a Hearing Aid Cost Six Times More Than an iPad? - see: http://www.audicus.com/blogs/hearing-aids-blog/6071822-why-does-a-hearing-aid-cost-six-times-more-than-an-ipad
Sources: Links and articles from Audicus Hearing Aids blogs and other public domain sources.
We know the marketing paradigm for hearing aids has to change, just based upon the internet and the fact that manufactures are getting hammered badly on their sales profits and projections. More importantly, the lame “Medical Equipment” excuse they like to use is ludicrous in light of the fact that more harm comes to the average person from their iPod and ear-buds than any mis-adjusted set of hearing aids could ever reasonably cause. If someone can control the broad-spectrum volume on their IPod and ear buds or listening device, effectively attend a rock concert as many hours a day as they care to listen, are you telling me they can’t be trusted or have the knowledge to set the amplification level on a pair of hearing aids to a level they can understand words when the frequency spectrum is specifically tailored to emphasize the frequencies that have to do with human speech and not broad-spectrum music from 20 Hz to 20 kHz? The argument just doesn’t fly, doesn’t hold water - and they know it. They are still trying to use invalid arguments to protect their massive profits - bottom line.
Yes, there are some cases where folks should have a medical checkup by a medical doctor - but to deny them the ability to hear better because they choose not to do that is another very hollow and meaningless excuse to protect their massive profits.
Just look at the games Phonak has been playing and their legal problems and maneuvering over recent years. One thing they did was to attempt to acquire GN resound in 2006. That was initially denied by the German courts, but upon appeal, that decision was reversed. By the time the higher court reversed the decision, both parties had changed their mind about the acquisition, somewhat based upon the fact that an unrelated court settlement had influx at significant capital to GN Resound (and to Phonak, but it wasn’t significant to Phonak).
These are some links to some of their woes and games:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-22/sonova-full-year-profit-misses-estimates-on-strong-franc
http://www.internationallawoffice.com/newsletters/Detail.aspx?g=10692846-27a9-49da-8141-f069009c4f8b
http://www.bundeskartellamt.de/wEnglisch/download/pdf/entscheidungen/07_Phonak_e.pdf
Keep in mind, this is the European legal system that has their sights trained on these manufacturers. It is yet to be seen how US courts and Bureaus of Jurisdiction will view it, but probably not well.
Then we move to issues of criminal wrong-doing that I had outlined earlier:
http://www.hoganlovells.com/files/Publication/7f314e88-f843-463d-813c-9425a24124b7/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/872d920a-a3b7-4e02-97d7-d87b0ee62fde/Antitrust.pdf
In Phonak, the FCO fined the company for a single anti-competitive act which occurred when Phonak identified an individual retailer offering hearing aid systems at a price level clearly below the company’s RSP. Phonak enforced a delivery cut-off and – successfully – urged the concerned customer to raise its prices. Moreover, the concerned retailer was the only price-active Internet shop and by cutting-off this retailer the company was therefore able to maintain the price level in the overall market for the trade of hearing aids, which was already aggravated by limited price competition at that market level.
http://deminor.org/DG/EN/cases/sonova-holdings-ag
Finally, there is the spectrum of Anti-Trust, restraint of trade and other related issues in the US Markets today:
Historically, back in the 1977-1979 era:
http://assets.wne.edu/159/12_note_Antitrus.pdf
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/US/442/442.US.330.78-690.html
The bottom line is that most of the major manufacturers are dirty and less than scrupulous it would appear. The European legal system has recognized it and penalized them; also initially blocking the acquisition of GN Resound by Sonova, a ruling later overturned, but only after the “window of value” for both parties had closed. It was, therefore, not completed.
My personal feeling is the time is right to have the US legal system, either civilly or via the appropriate government agencies go after these folks. Our documentation alone is sufficient to show that while we were operating 100% within the law, specifically the FDA laws (remember, individual states have no jurisdiction in this part), Phonak gave directives to one of their retail outlets to take no orders from us, even for those items they sell directly to the public. This can be a big problem for them if it is pushed, particularly because of the fact that they sell these same things directly to the public, and have put in written form, that “They will no longer take ANY order from us”.
I suspect at some point, contacts with the DOJ anti-trust division and other letters might can get some congressional insight and/or investigations going on the entire dirty lot, starting with Phonak, simply because that is where we have the direct evidence we can produce.
Regards,
Additionally, see these interesting links about Phonak’s own legal problems.
ABOUT HEARING AID PRICES AND ASSOCIATED MANUFACTURER LEGAL VIOLATIONS AND PROBLEMS
By way of a bit of introduction, the objective herein is to give the person with hearing loss some additional insight into the ridiculously high prices charged for hearing aids. This information is about the facts and secrets the five or six major manufacturers (http://hearingaidinsider.com/articles/who-are-major-hearing-aid-manufacturers) don’t want you to know; about who is getting rich, how and why are they allowed to do these things. Although the consumer sees many brand names in the market place, many of those have the same core or internal electronics with certain features enabled or disabled to differentiate the different price levels and markets.
The Hearing Aid industry marketing models and distribution channels are changing by necessity and by government enforcement of anti-trust (anti-monopoly) and fair trade laws. The industry once used the “Medical Device Safety Argument” to justify their monopoly. That argument is hollow in the context of other products such as IPods, MP3 Players and other audio devices that are capable of producing hearing damaging sound levels. The current generation of such devices, in conjunction with the head phones and ear bud they utilize are potentially far more harmful than any hearing aid ever produced or even imagined. Still, this industry utilizes this rapidly eroding argument to justify the $5000 to $6000 dollars per pair of devices that should sell new for the $1000 to $1500 range if they followed the paths of other consumer electronics.
With the help of various governmental agencies, both in Europe (particularly in Germany) and in the US, this will slowly change to a fair and free market, much like the automobile industry has had to do with the coming of age of the internet. While consumers are still captive to a large extent, and there are clear monopolistic elements, that is slowly changing with the ability to shop internationally and the legal enforcement of fair trade laws and anti-monopoly litigation and statutes.
Why are Hearing Aids so expensive and who is making excessive profits and getting rich on those who have hearing loss?
Hearing Aids Prices vs. Consumer Electronics - see:
http://www.audicus.com/blogs/hearing-aids-blog/6857818-hearing-aids-prices-vs-consumer-electronics?utm_source=Audicus+Updates&utm_campaign=be6cf66c01-Greetings_from_Audicus_04_27_2012&utm_medium=email
Is there a Hearing Aid Bubble? - see: http://www.audicus.com/blogs/hearing-aids-blog/6071730-is-there-a-hearing-aid-price-bubble
Why Does a Hearing Aid Cost Six Times More Than an iPad? - see: http://www.audicus.com/blogs/hearing-aids-blog/6071822-why-does-a-hearing-aid-cost-six-times-more-than-an-ipad
Sources: Links and articles from Audicus Hearing Aids blogs and other public domain sources.
We know the marketing paradigm for hearing aids has to change, just based upon the internet and the fact that manufactures are getting hammered badly on their sales profits and projections. More importantly, the lame “Medical Equipment” excuse they like to use is ludicrous in light of the fact that more harm comes to the average person from their iPod and ear-buds than any mis-adjusted set of hearing aids could ever reasonably cause. If someone can control the broad-spectrum volume on their IPod and ear buds or listening device, effectively attend a rock concert as many hours a day as they care to listen, are you telling me they can’t be trusted or have the knowledge to set the amplification level on a pair of hearing aids to a level they can understand words when the frequency spectrum is specifically tailored to emphasize the frequencies that have to do with human speech and not broad-spectrum music from 20 Hz to 20 kHz? The argument just doesn’t fly, doesn’t hold water - and they know it. They are still trying to use invalid arguments to protect their massive profits - bottom line.
Yes, there are some cases where folks should have a medical checkup by a medical doctor - but to deny them the ability to hear better because they choose not to do that is another very hollow and meaningless excuse to protect their massive profits.
Just look at the games Phonak has been playing and their legal problems and maneuvering over recent years. One thing they did was to attempt to acquire GN resound in 2006. That was initially denied by the German courts, but upon appeal, that decision was reversed. By the time the higher court reversed the decision, both parties had changed their mind about the acquisition, somewhat based upon the fact that an unrelated court settlement had influx at significant capital to GN Resound (and to Phonak, but it wasn’t significant to Phonak).
These are some links to some of their woes and games:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-22/sonova-full-year-profit-misses-estimates-on-strong-franc
http://www.internationallawoffice.com/newsletters/Detail.aspx?g=10692846-27a9-49da-8141-f069009c4f8b
http://www.bundeskartellamt.de/wEnglisch/download/pdf/entscheidungen/07_Phonak_e.pdf
Keep in mind, this is the European legal system that has their sights trained on these manufacturers. It is yet to be seen how US courts and Bureaus of Jurisdiction will view it, but probably not well.
Then we move to issues of criminal wrong-doing that I had outlined earlier:
http://www.hoganlovells.com/files/Publication/7f314e88-f843-463d-813c-9425a24124b7/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/872d920a-a3b7-4e02-97d7-d87b0ee62fde/Antitrust.pdf
In Phonak, the FCO fined the company for a single anti-competitive act which occurred when Phonak identified an individual retailer offering hearing aid systems at a price level clearly below the company’s RSP. Phonak enforced a delivery cut-off and – successfully – urged the concerned customer to raise its prices. Moreover, the concerned retailer was the only price-active Internet shop and by cutting-off this retailer the company was therefore able to maintain the price level in the overall market for the trade of hearing aids, which was already aggravated by limited price competition at that market level.
http://deminor.org/DG/EN/cases/sonova-holdings-ag
Finally, there is the spectrum of Anti-Trust, restraint of trade and other related issues in the US Markets today:
Historically, back in the 1977-1979 era:
http://assets.wne.edu/159/12_note_Antitrus.pdf
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/US/442/442.US.330.78-690.html
The bottom line is that most of the major manufacturers are dirty and less than scrupulous it would appear. The European legal system has recognized it and penalized them; also initially blocking the acquisition of GN Resound by Sonova, a ruling later overturned, but only after the “window of value” for both parties had closed. It was, therefore, not completed.
My personal feeling is the time is right to have the US legal system, either civilly or via the appropriate government agencies go after these folks. Our documentation alone is sufficient to show that while we were operating 100% within the law, specifically the FDA laws (remember, individual states have no jurisdiction in this part), Phonak gave directives to one of their retail outlets to take no orders from us, even for those items they sell directly to the public. This can be a big problem for them if it is pushed, particularly because of the fact that they sell these same things directly to the public, and have put in written form, that “They will no longer take ANY order from us”.
I suspect at some point, contacts with the DOJ anti-trust division and other letters might can get some congressional insight and/or investigations going on the entire dirty lot, starting with Phonak, simply because that is where we have the direct evidence we can produce.
Regards.
I’d contact ebay and paypal and ask for my money back.
Thanks for sharing I was looking at those!
This is a great thread. With the VA being one of the largest, if not the largest Phonak dispensers in the US it’s inevitable some of these HAs are going to end up on eBay or Craigslist. Has anyone purchased one of these aids and tried to send it to Phonak for warranty repair? Do they really try to confiscate the aid or do the honor warranty? If not , will they do the repair for an additional fee?
Hi all,
So I signed on because I am trying to sell my hearing aids on Ebay. I have my serial numbers, receipts, etc. The Audiologist told me they were very good when I got them a year ago. Oticon Mini-rite Alta, with 60 speakers. She said they were fully programmable. I listed all the other contents from the kit, like the TV connections, remote, etc. but when I went to complete my listing for these hearing aids that I literally used about 5 times in the last year and only one set of batteries, Ebay sent me to a link to the FDA. I don’t know if this is a showstopper, or a bump in the road. All this stuff is like literally brand new and I’d hate to think that I just need to hang onto these forever until I REALLY need then in 10 or 15 years. I’d rather put the money to use on my fitness for now. Can anyone guide me through the process? Or isn’t there a process.
Thanks. Greg Yatko
All the sellers of HA on ebay have a big disclaimer at the end. I think you’d need to add/copy that.
Anyone got any advise about ebay phonak q70-up , from india for $110 us, msut be a scam or stolen?
I realize this thread is over 6 years old since the last post, but it seems the right thread for me to share a recent experience I had on this topic.
I own a pair of Marvel M90-R HAs. I bought these new over the internet 3 years ago from South Korea from an authorized Phonak distributor. All items arrived fast and brand new in sealed, unopened boxes. While, technically, they came with an international warranty I would have had to ship them back to South Korea for any warranty claims (which the seller was willing to accommodate if needed). However, practically speaking I regarded the purchase as having ZERO warranty.
I found an audiologist where I lived at that time who would perform REM programming on them, after he contacted Phonak with my serial numbers who apparently confirmed that the aids had been sold legitimately via an authorized distributor. I also self-program (but not REM). Eighteen months into ownership the Left aid failed. Phonak do in-house repairs for a set fee. $350 in this case. However, they WILL NOT accept them directly from “patients” - ONLY from an authorized Phonak dealer/distributor, so I was told by Phonak directly. My audiologist accepted the faulty HA, sent it to Phonak, who returned it repaired to the audiologist, etc.
Buying hearing aids off eBay is a perfectly fine thing to do if you know what you’re doing. For example, some audiologists have started selling brand new HAs there and saying in their listing that a 3-year warranty is included (assuming they are new). I think this is a good thing since that would be the audiologist one would go back to if an HA needed warranty work. However, ANY USED HA on eBay is highly unlikely to have any warranty. Even if the Target software shows an existing warranty extending years into the future you HAVE TO have a relationship with an authorized Phonak audiologist/distributor to handle the warranty claim with Phonak for you. As has been mentioned on this forum time and again, it would be rare to find an audiologist who would do that for you if you walk in off the street with a broken pair of used HAs.
An eBay seller may offer a number of days for you to return the HAs if not satisfied and that is a risk worth taking, I think, if the aids are priced appropriately. The benchmark for “priced appropriately” IMHO is to compare the eBay used HAs to new equivalents. For example, new Costco KS10s, with a full warranty and free fitting, are $1,400. I don’t see how a pair of used Paradise P90-R with a charger and NO WARRANTY should sell for more than around half the Costco prices. And yet, many do. So, buyer beware.
Also, maybe an EBay buyer of used hearing aids should become aware of two more considerations;
Good points also! I have been told by an audiologist that HAs issued by the VA might fall under your first category if sent to Phonak. But this is unclear. Either way, eBay is a dangerous place to acquire HAs but I would buy from there and have done in the past as long as the cost is something I’m willing to write off if they break (which they do on a regular basis YMMV).
Yep, I buy EBay HAs also.
I found a online seller from NYC who is an HIS and order aids from India. It comes with a one year international warranty. I take good care of aids and have the Phonak hearing aid dryer. I wear my hat to protect the aids from heat and rain.
Definitely not, Phonak nor the VA own the HAs once they are fitted, they then become the property of the person issued them, I’ve been through this myself a few times and had no problem with Phonak, granted I’ve had to pay a couple of times for the repairs.
I used that source as well. Although it’s not my first eBay purchase it does give me reason for concern considering the verbage on the supplied warranty card!
If you do need warranty work how is that accomplished?
I wonder what I’m doing right?
I’ve bought used and brand new and sealed Phonak Aids off eBay since 2011 and not one has gone faulty.
My friend who I got into self programming only 3 months ago has messaged me saying that one of her new Phonak Aids is no longer working and she bought brand new and sealed off eBay.
Any Audiology clinic can send to the manufacturer (in this case Phonak) for a repair, warranty or no warranty.
Could be something simple, blocked wax filter, broken receiver wire?
She bought the Phonak Sky V70 P, which are a BTE. She was desperate for colourful hearing aids.
She changed the ear hook but still no joy. She has the lights activated as she liked them and the light is not even flashing. The battery works in her other Aid tho.
“Any” can but many won’t. I have direct experience with three different audiologist who would not program or accept me as a client if I wanted them to work on used HAs that I bought off eBay, except the pair that I bought new from South Korea. They would work on them including sending them to Phonak (but no warranty).
Hint: when buying used HAs (from anywhere) obtain the serial numbers first and either plug those numbers into the Target software and check for warranty coverage, or call your friendly local audiologist and ask them to do it. If Target responds with “contact customer service” there is NO WARRANTY.
There are a pair of P90-R used HAs on eBay this moment that shows the serial numbers and current warranty period for another couple of years. These would likely be valid HAs (ie not recorded by Phonak as either lost, stolen or sold outside the USA).